Watching people with no idea is scary......

This morning I went to firies training and something very bad happened, and then it got worse and worse.

first up, we were attending a burn off on the front of the range, so those that know toowoomba will know how steep that is. we were setting up and getting the trucks in to postition when one of our drivers did something stoopid that i wont go into the details of, but he ended up loosing control of the 4wd truck and slidding nose first down a hill, slid about 10 metres and took a gum tree out, only stoped becasue he was ontop of the tree. He was ok, a bit shook up (understandably) and had a cut on his hand from the shattered window.


Then the really stupid parts started, the truck had come to a rest leaning on a tree and it was tipping to one side. so the solution to this problem to hold it in place until the heavy haulage recovery truck showed up.

They attached 3 links of drag chain to another truck (that wasn't chocked or anything just sat higher up parrallel to the stranded truck), then attach it to the low side of the stranded truck, and the chain was slack.

Can anyone else think of 3 problems with this?
1. Attach the chain to a tree not another truck that can move!!!
2. Attach the chain to a high point on the high side of the truck. The truckhas roll bars, but despite the truck getting smashed they didn't want to scratch the paint.
3. With a slack chain what happens if the truck does start slipping, it jolts the other truck and then it will start moving.

I tried to point out these problems but the guys that were there were older firefighters so just cause i have more expeirience in recovery, doesn't mean i would know anything.

Then it gets worse, they started walking around the low side of the truck and climing all over it.

It is really scary to see how some people treat a dangerous situation...

age doesn't necessarily bring wisdom i guess, but you'd think plain old commonsense would have come into play somewhere in that situation. sounds like it was only sheer luck that stopped "dangerous" from becoming "disasterous".

You can't fix "STUPID"

Deadly GU wrote:You can't fix "STUPID"

I see stupid people all the time, there all around me!!, sometimes they don't even know there stupid

that is Stupid in the biggest sense of the word dont they do safety training...... and these are the ppl that are putting out fires do they start them also...

Bargie wrote:that is Stupid in the biggest sense of the word dont they do safety training...... and these are the ppl that are putting out fires do they start them also...

it was funny, a heap of the guys were bitching "now were going to have to do 4wd training courses"

umm thats not a bad thing...

in regards to the starting fires bit, well we were there to do a burn off, so yeh we do start fires.

Bargie wrote:these are the ppl that are putting out fires do they start them also

in some cases - YES

and it's not restricted to volunteer brigades or proffessional firefighters. unfortunately, some of these people join the brigades in order to get close to the action and when that action is slow, they're not above starting a fire just for the adrenalin rush they get when attending a fire.

it's sad and it's criminal, particularly when a deliberate act such as that causes loss of life.

squeeker wrote:in regards to the starting fires bit, well we were there to do a burn off, so yeh we do start fires.

sorry tony, i'm not having a shot - al and our son are both in the volunteer bush brigade here. both the volunteers and professional brigades do an amazing job and i have the utmost respect for these people who put their time and safety on the line at times. just there are some that don't behave so responsibly.

squeeker wrote:
it was funny, a heap of the guys were bitching "now were going to have to do 4wd training courses"

I thought that'd be the first thing they would teach, especially in mountainous countryside!

jan, tis all good, i wasnt offended, I know full well that there are idiots that join just to play with fire. years before i joined there was a guy in our brigade that was always at fires before anyone else, there were suspisions about him, and one day he sliped up andd someone saw him lighting a fire then run back to his car and changing in to his overalls and goig back to try put it out him self.


paul, all they care about is if you have a truck licence, beyond that they dont care about ability to drive.

mikey0211 wrote:

Deadly GU wrote:You can't fix "STUPID"

I see stupid people all the time, there all around me!!, sometimes they don't even know there stupid

They do help the time pass at work though

mikey0211 wrote:

Deadly GU wrote:You can't fix "STUPID"

I see stupid people all the time, there all around me!!, sometimes they don't even know there stupid

Didn't they do that send up on MAD TV or something?
It was funny whoever did it

Hey Tony are you guys still using the canters?

and it seems strange that they dont provide a course for you guys even a basic course, I used to work at a factory in brisbane that supplied the rural fire brigade with the canters, we had one or two that came back damaged (obviously through mis-use) we asked if they where fully trained in the vehicles and was told "yes our drivers are fully accredited"

i think there's no 4wd/offroad education, just have to have the correct licence. i guess it's a balance they are volunteers, and training for these guys is most of a day per fortnight, so to expect them to do more is hard- it's already a big commitment. it would be good to have in some ways, but even then there has to be some common sense as training doesn't cover all situations.

i support the ruralies- dad been in a tiny brigade for 20years, and now tony does it but it does attract some idiots....

RED wrote:Hey Tony are you guys still using the canters?

yeh we stil have 1 canter, but they are slowly being phased out for isuzus.

Squawker wrote:i think there's no 4wd/offroad education, just have to have the correct licence. i guess it's a balance they are volunteers, and training for these guys is most of a day per fortnight, so to expect them to do more is hard- it's already a big commitment.

Sorry there Caitlin, I would have to disagree with you there, being in the SES (volunteer as well), we have weekend training that encompases chainsawing, 4wd'ing, boating and others this goes for the 2 days over the weekend, some have even gone over 3 days.

Yes the fact that it happened was unfortunate, however the proper training should be provided, be it directly from QRFS/EMQ or the unit directly.

So the whole they don't have time, sorry doesn't really cut it...

Considering what the 2 organisations do, SES/RFS, and the levels of danger that you can be thrust into when being called out buy these two groups, I find it is amazing how much more comprehensive the SES training is, as Adrian has said with all the courses that are on offer through the SES and you need to complete the course before being allow to handle the equipment. Take chainsaws for example, in the SES you need a ticket, in the RFS all you need is for the first officer to believe that you are capable of handleing it. no proof required.

91GQ wrote:

Squawker wrote:i think there's no 4wd/offroad education, just have to have the correct licence. i guess it's a balance they are volunteers, and training for these guys is most of a day per fortnight, so to expect them to do more is hard- it's already a big commitment.

Sorry there Caitlin, I would have to disagree with you there, being in the SES (volunteer as well), we have weekend training that encompases chainsawing, 4wd'ing, boating and others this goes for the 2 days over the weekend, some have even gone over 3 days.

Yes the fact that it happened was unfortunate, however the proper training should be provided, be it directly from QRFS/EMQ or the unit directly.

So the whole they don't have time, sorry doesn't really cut it...

Can't answer for Queensland but in NSW for the RFS, to drive the 4x4 Canter you need to be licensed for it. If you intend to drive it off road there is a seperate coarse again for 4wd training. You can drive the vehicle without being 4wd trained.

Also in NSW the RFS needs to be trained int he use of the equipment. Tony you mention the chainsaw. If we are not trained in the use of it, we are allowed to carry it, but not use it. Of course until everything goes pear shaped then we can do anything we like.

The RFS and SES are two completely different bodies and can not be compared in resources, training or the degree of voluntary hours and definetly in the jobs they do. Each have a different role to play and neither cuts it any better or worse then the other.

91GQ wrote:

Squawker wrote:i think there's no 4wd/offroad education, just have to have the correct licence. i guess it's a balance they are volunteers, and training for these guys is most of a day per fortnight, so to expect them to do more is hard- it's already a big commitment.

Sorry there Caitlin, I would have to disagree with you there, being in the SES (volunteer as well), we have weekend training that encompases chainsawing, 4wd'ing, boating and others this goes for the 2 days over the weekend, some have even gone over 3 days.

Yes the fact that it happened was unfortunate, however the proper training should be provided, be it directly from QRFS/EMQ or the unit directly.

So the whole they don't have time, sorry doesn't really cut it...

So Adrian how does this relate to the original question about 4wd training for the RFS which is what I think Caitlin was referring to.
Tony already said all the RFS cares about is if you have the relevent truck licence which in my opinion is not providing the volunteers with a safe workplace when they do get into a difficult situation.

If I was a volunteer stuck in the middle of a fire and, using some 4WD skills to evade injury or death was my only option to get out, I would sure hope I'd been taught those skills early on when originally volunteering.
Driving a laden tanker would require a higher level of control and judgement than the 4WDing we do on weekends I'd imagine, and they're expected to do this without training?

Stampy wrote:

So Adrian how does this relate to the original question about 4wd training for the RFS which is what I think Caitlin was referring to.
Tony already said all the RFS cares about is if you have the relevent truck licence which in my opinion is not providing the volunteers with a safe workplace when they do get into a difficult situation.

If I was a volunteer stuck in the middle of a fire and, using some 4WD skills to evade injury or death was my only option to get out, I would sure hope I'd been taught those skills early on when originally volunteering.
Driving a laden tanker would require a higher level of control and judgement than the 4WDing we do on weekends I'd imagine, and they're expected to do this without training?

What I am getting at that relates to Caitlins comment is that there is no excuse that they don't do the training...

Just because it is a volunteer organisation doesn't give it reason for the lack of training.

If they are expected to enter into the situations that they do get into (and good on them for doing it, I back them 110%) they should be given the correct amount of training, be it 2 hrs a weekend or 2 days a weekend, the training should be there, as said before I am in the SES and just cause our training is on a Monday night for 2 hours we are given the opportunity to do extra training to get the tickets needed for the equipment that we have, and yes 4wd training is part of that. We have weekends to train for flood boat operations. I was out at Oakey a few years back to get my chainsaw ticket, we were out there all weekend from friday night to Sunday afternoon. Yes it was in my time, but for me to have gone down to Newcastle a few years back I needed to do that, I wasn't just told here you go, theres a chainsaw, try not to cut yourself. We were given a practical exam and theroy exam as well.

Training should be given for all aspects of the job. Could imagine the poop that would have hit the fan had the driver or passengers injured themselves or worse died. The qld government wouldn't have had a leg to stand on...

I would have to agree with adrian on this, i believe that the training in some aspects is a bit lax... i would be willing to put in the extra hours to do the required training.

Al i would have to disagree with you comments about the 2 groups not being the same, yes they have different purposes, however they are both volenteer emergency services. and i dont see any difference when it comes to the level of training that should be required.

Not saying RFS don't need training, just saying the training needs, while some are similar most are different.

At the end of the day both are Voluntary and the Volunteer gets out of it as much as they put into it.

squeeker wrote:I would have to agree with adrian on this, i believe that the training in some aspects is a bit lax... i would be willing to put in the extra hours to do the required training.

Al i would have to disagree with you comments about the 2 groups not being the same, yes they have different purposes, however they are both volenteer emergency services. and i dont see any difference when it comes to the level of training that should be required.

I think we are all saying the same thing here.

What I was saying earlier is that I can't believe they wouldn't provide the necessary training in the first instance.

With this incident on the weekend I know it was a training exercise but why hasn't proper 4WD/Recovery training already been done first?

Stampy wrote:I think we are all saying the same thing here.

What I was saying earlier is that I can't believe they wouldn't provide the necessary training in the first instance.

With this incident on the weekend I know it was a training exercise but why hasn't proper 4WD/Recovery training already been done first?

I think we are Stampy.

I am not disagreeing that both need training. If the Queensland RFS is anything like the NSW RFS, the training is there, but rather then it being readily available and offered to the Volunteers, it is more a case of the Volunteer having to chase the training and coarses as they become availalbe and before they are cancelled. You do you Basics and then the rest is up to the Volunteer or each Brigade.

The infrastructure of the NSW RFS really needs to be overhauled. As the paid staff are at HQ they always get first chop at training and equipment but like the eternal flame, they never go out.

Like I said we do have a 4wd coarse but only one from the local brigade got on it last year and that was a referesher.

squeeker wrote:I would have to agree with adrian on this, i believe that the training in some aspects is a bit lax... i would be willing to put in the extra hours to do the required training.

Al i would have to disagree with you comments about the 2 groups not being the same, yes they have different purposes, however they are both volenteer emergency services. and i dont see any difference when it comes to the level of training that should be required.

For once we actually agree there...